I am disappointed in Yaoi

[MaterTenebraum]

I deeply regret getting into the genre, for it wasn't either what I expected nor I found enough material to make this experience pleasant at all.

 

But before taking my leave and complete my research, I wish you to tell me what's inside your minds. I wish you to explain to me why is it that you enjoy so much about Yaoi and what made you put such dubiously enticing subjects on a pedestal?

 

I've read in the past few days a bit of this and that, such as Junjou Romantica, Okane Ga Nai, Koisorun Bokun, all of these presented to me as "good" examples of what is Yaoi about. Each one of them was a mind-scarring experience, a constant reminder that society lives accepting the abuser and blaming the victim. It's a reminder that nobody could ever tell, not even myself, when I was inside an abusive relationship, because it is seen as such a normal and romantic thing to be.

 

I want to understand why you like it so much, if you are conscious that it is wrong. And if you want to help me, then you could be kind enough to tell me in which parts am I wrong and if there's any example of the genre which doesn't contain such things.

 

All of this is for personal research, I must add. Before giving up on this, tell me what else should I know.

 

But regardless of what may come, you must know something: fictional or not, rape is unforgivable.

[rainbow fox]

I personally love it because it appeals to my personal sense of eroticism. sorry if that's not enough.:_red_fox 8

[MaterTenebraum]

Then, how do you describe your personal sense of "eroticism"? I want to understand why is it supposed to be "erotic" at all.

[rainbow fox]

well the best way I can describe it is this, it appeals to the side of me that is attracted to two members of the same sex doing certain things that society forbids, for example kissing,hugging etc. it also appeals to some of my personal fetishes to, and the best thing I find about yaoi (in my opinion) is that it can be a public thing or you can enjoy it in private, seeing as how yaoi are mostly comic books. if someone asks you about what it is your reading that is of their own free will, thus if they are offended, it was their fault in the first place. I apologize if these are not good reasons, but they are what I feel and believe.:_red_fox 14

[MaterTenebraum]

Do you like them just because of the fact that it is "forbidden"? It's forbidden in the context that homosexuality is considered a sin in certain societies, and thus making the taboo a fetish and nothing else. It is not actual concern about the forbidding itself, but the thrill of trespassing the boundaries of what is acceptable. Homosexuality is not a game nor a fetish, it's a preference and you can't make it acceptable by making it into a "forbidden love" fetish.

 

Besides, the acts of hugging and kissing are not hurtful nor immoral, out of the context, at least. Rape and abuse are however, acts of extreme perversion and evil regardless of who's the victim or who's the attacker. Rape is rape. And I am upset because Yaoi romanticizes this very subject.

[rainbow fox]

number one this is my opinion and my opinion alone. number two there are homosexuals who have no problem with it, so there is no need to make it a problem, number three this yaoi is pure fiction a.ka. a fantasy, and number four if you dislike it so, why join and become an actual member of a yaoi forum instead of a forum that supports gay rights? I'm not saying I'm making fun a homosexuals I was just explaining why I get so much joy out of it, since you said you wanted to know why, do NOT attack me because my explanation does not fit what you intended.:Red_fox5:

[jahero]

I have a question? If Yaoi is making fun of people of gay relations then does that mean that anything romantic, ( regardless of the type (( straight, gay, etc)) are all making fun of the things they use in there stories? I mean. If your telling me. that something the brings people together, and that has this big of a fan base is wrong and in discriminating to people whom are gay , then if what your saying is true. Then everything and everyone is making fun or everything.

[MaterTenebraum]

I beg you to not avoid my subject, if you please. I was very specifically talking about romanticized Rape in yaoi. I am fully aware of the existence of Yaoi without it, but I'm adressing the part that does.

 

It is your opinion, and that's something I should respect. The fact that there are homosexuals supporting this kind of fetish doesn't make it right (because homosexuals aren't exempt of right and wrong), Rape is still a problem regardless how much it affects you personally. Fiction mirrors and subconsciously influences society; I'm not saying that it makes you support real rape or become a rapist, but those who are actually rapists and rape-apologists will find these kind of representations as supportive and they will feel that their acts are more acceptable regardless their social orientation. It's like giving them a cookie after they've done something bad.

 

I am an activist of gay rights as well. I want to get involved in any possible media that can represent my culture, and the reason why I got inside this forum in the first place was for research. I will leave soon though, as it seems completely pointless to me to adress these problems here. While it is true that some people here seem to genuinely support queer rights, I am very upset to see people accepting rape and abuse as legitimate ways to express their "love" for such matters.

 

Please explain to me why do people enjoy making Rape a fetish.

[rainbow fox]

well to be honest you should be happy that rape is only in these comicbooks and that it is still fictional would you rather people take this to the next level and bring some of this to life because they are too feeble minded to control their free will, or rather people read about it and know that it is fiction? also, you did not answer my question about why you are here on a site that fully supports what you seem to dislike. and another thing, who are you to decide what is right and wrong for people, if you are not a divine entity you have no right to judge, I can understand if you are curious but your so called curiosity has taken on a new level when you have the audacity to put words in my mouth and down play my beliefs. Yaoi is purely fictional unless specified, point, blank, period.:Red_fox6:

[jahero]

What kind of outcome did you want to get out of your research? Because I don't understand. And you never answered my question ether. No one here thinks rape is okay, im sure. But its a fantasy, things that remain in the head because for what ever reason that cant or shouldnt happen in the real world. That would be like telling people whom like superman that it is wrong because people cant fly and save the world. I know that the degree is different but the point is the same. When you start your research, you should have made a guess at what you were going to find. So tell me please, what did you think people were going to tell you ?

[MaterTenebraum]

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It should not make me happy that it only happens in comic books, because it's already happening in real life, because media often consents the behavior of abusive male roles, not limited to yaoi. It gets even worse when people sensationalize it instead of addressing it as wrong. I already explained that I'm here for research and I'm sorry, but I just recently discovered that I dislike this genre, and I can't keep quiet about my reasons, because I'm extremely sensitive about this matter. It's not up to me to decide what's right and wrong, but I dare to question your sense of morality if you don't see anything bad with rape.

 

As someone who has gone through abusive relationships, it took me long enough to realize this problem, and I feel enraged whenever someone tells me again that "he did it because he loved me", because this is what I see reflected in the Yaoi I've previously mentioned. Yaoi makes me remember that I was once abused and I endured it because society told me it gets better... It doesn't. Wouldn't it make you upset that people misunderstand your situation so badly that they build an entire genre to glorify your pain?

 

I hope I made my point.

 

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I'm sorry, I really just wanted to get more into queer-friendly genres, but I made a bad decision. In exchange of that, I've obtained valuable information on how Rape Culture works within unlikely places. I see the point you're trying to make, but I can hardly see how valid is it when you compare something as beautiful as flying like Superman with something as hideous as rape. It is okay when people make flying something romantic, something dreamy and full of beauty, but when you do that same thing with rape, it ain't so nice.

 

I expected people to show me a positive side. I expected people to show me another way to express our queer culture, but I was actually very naïve and I actually expected to see more homosexual-friendly things. But I was wrong. If something I've learned from this short-lived experience, was to obtain more facts than doing the research, and a very important fact was that Yaoi is not victim-friendly.

[SqueezeBabe]

I think you fail to understand the relationship between the Uke and the Seme. In some yaoi, there is "bad" rape. Forcing someone to have sex against their will, and they truly don't want to do it... and then there is the "rape" when the Seme forces the Uke to acknowledge their true feelings, and everyone lives happily ever after.

 

There are also undercurrents of Dominance and Submission, which can only be expressed in yaoi by "rape". Perhaps you need to research bdsm a little and you might understand it a bit better?

[rainbow fox]

I noticed your real good at avoiding questions number one, number two your personal experience has nothing to do with how everyone else see's it. I'm sorry that those things happened to you, but again you can't curve my opinion of this because of what happened to you, and number three if you really have such a problem get off this forum, and be a physical activist for events like this, that way you can help someone else like yourself to avoid such deplorable behavior. and I ask you again for a third time, why are you on this forum if you do not like it, it's quite obvious your trying to get me to see a dark side with yaoi, but I do not and I will not, because I am fully aware it is fiction, and whatever personal problems others may have they usually keep to themselves or talk with their friends of the same mindset.:_red_fox 12

[Black Rose]

I had a feeling that you went through something traumatic by the way you write. Have you considered that what you went through is possibly blocking you from seeing what really goes on with yaoi? Also, keep in mind that everyone is different and has their own opinions and set of moralities. You can defend yourself, but try not to force your opinion on someone.

 

Also, you don't have to answer this since your life isn't any of my business, but have you talked to a psychologist or someone?

[jahero]

onionn7onion9onion4

 

Im sorry that things of that nature have happened to you. But i agree with

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and

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.

 

Maybe you should look into the research of yaoi and why the things happen the way they do with in the culture. Then I have this question: Why did you pick yaoi as the culture to research? Yaoi isnt a rape culture anymore then any other culture out there. In some cultures its okay for kids under 13 to get married or be raped just because there is war going on and yet your on a site that is fictional, when there is real rape going on and I dont really see you in that case trying to stop the rape that is already happening . Im not trying to make you feel bad for having your opinion. But when you try and tell people whom like Yaoi. that they are wrong for liking this is not right. Please Learn more about what your researching before you start telling us we are wrong. I thank you for saying sorry. And btw queer doesnt mean gay it means straight and usual, also I dont believe anyone here is ' queer ' we are all humans whom just enjoy something different. Also. as for my comparing rape to flying. I wasnt, i was comparing it to you saying that me liking something is wrong. rather it be lovely to you - it may not be to others. BUt no one its tell you that Flying is wrong are they.

[unlove]

I must agree with

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argumentation, however we must not forget that every genre, YAOI included, is Art- Art is often controversial. MaterTenebraum, you are not forced to watch Art; you can always switch the genre, the author, painter(...)

I find YAOI to be very interesting. I think, nobody who is watching YAOI consciously; thinking, analyzing; approves Rape. But in Real Life we often "rape" people emotionally; when having a close encounter( sex), we do wild things, too. "Do you want me to stop telling my honey, that I'm gonna 'rape' him, now(?)" when we're in bed, living our fantasies- rhetoric question.

 

Nobody approves Rape; In YAOI rape is used to express feelings, continue a story, push people towards each other- I find it to be very sensual in SOME cases. Rape is used as a Tool.

Just like in RL in our erotic life, those YAOI-boys on TV express their erotic fantasies. I'm more than sure that there are people who do similar things in RL and think it's "sexy".

I won't start talking about it(YAOI) when/because your methods are wrong; I won't write a book, tell you everything and anything, explore this matter- because, your "research", your approach and methods are simply wrong. Yes, you asked us and yes, you told us your critique- in a very good manner- , but all you've done( the general expression) is telling the people about ONE aspect of YAOI's "Art". There are far more aspects than just "Rape" in YAOI. You cannot expect people to understand&talk about YAOI with you, when all you do is being polemically- a research needs methodology and another start/approach. Then, your terms; since when do we call something a research, when all we do is being a polemicist?

....Cut....

There's no reason for me to continue. I wish you luck in your "research".

There are more Boys on Boys genres you could explore.

 

Thank You and Good Luck!

[Black Rose]

Also, since you're doing research on yaoi, you can't let any biases get in the way or it will screw up your data/facts.

[celio]

i think yaoi absolutely nothing to do with rape. yaoi is about two man fall in love with each other, that's why i love about yaoi, it doesnt matter whether the world allow them or despise them. the matter is they love each other and there's nothing can stop them.

so about the rape or rapist, is not something that always come in yaoi. rape is everywhere even in the normal relatonship, more rape i guess in noemal relationship. so i think you should also bring your research in a normal relationship. that's what i think

[unlove]

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One more thing( in response to your previous post on page 1);

There's this little problem with LGBT activists.... but, why explaining; it's like talking to a feminist.

 

This Forum is a bad place? There is no bad place; there are bad methods and bad questions. It's all about your approach, terminology and understanding/counter-understanding. Please, refrain from any false interpretations and mindsets. If you truly want to attract people to respond to your polemics, be more scientific and/or art-ish. Don't mix things up.

 

True Activism needs intelligence and academic approach towards people and society- I am not implying anything! Don't misunderstand.

 

Again, have a good day!

[MaterTenebraum]

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This was precisely what I was talking about. Yaoi downplays Rape as a form to make the victims "acknowledge" their feelings, presented as if the victim MUST be forced to love his abuser. This is not okay.

 

And I know how BDSM works. Real BDSM is done under people's consent, and rules or safewords are previously established, so the dominant subject can know how far is s/he allowed to go with his/her partner. The submissive subject agrees to go through this because s/he's confident enough about him/herself, and therefore this activity should not represent physical or emotional harm at all. BDSM is about trust and mutual enjoyment through extreme experiences. Real BDSM does not involve the transgression of rules, otherwise it becomes Rape.

 

And by the way you make it sound, Rape is actually an agreeable "choice" of relationship building. This makes me even more upset, I'm sorry.

 

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I don't understand which question am I avoiding so hard, but okay. It's always one unwelcome true fact what makes everyone uncomfortable versus a pleasant fantasy that grants the illusion of sexual liberation. I do activism in the real world, so why shouldn't I share my observations with a forum that, from my point of view, needs to think about it, as I try to be as rational as can be. And I'm truly sorry to cause you such a bother, but I already said that I was barely getting into the genre when I signed in to this forum.

 

There's a dark side to everything. You can find it when you actually try to be neutral about it. There's no use on denying that a lot of Yaoi has rape in it, and it emulates the abuse that I and many others have gone through, yet some people have the insensitivity of sugar-coating it and justifying it for personal enjoyment.

 

Please mind what you try to say; keeping problems to yourself will never change the world outside. Keeping my problems to myself would have been bad for me.

[MaterTenebraum]

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I am actually scared now. It scares me that rape looks normal. Rape is not about love, is about control.

[rainbow fox]

Okay, I'm really getting tired of explaining to you what your doing wrong, I get it, you dislike yaoi because you are being too closed minded about such a subject, but you need to realize your opinion can be appreciated if it is not forced, it's like someone trying to force you to accept santa claus, you have the free will to do so or to not do so, and again, I apologize that such events had befallen you, But to your dismay that WILL NOT change the way I feel, also, last I checked the writers and illustrators of yaoi themed comics did NOT say, oh wow this girls life has been cruel lets make fun of her for it, they probably have no idea you exist. so please let this be the last time, you WILL not change my opinion, if you really are offended you'd go elsewhere where people who are of your mindset can help, because they have been through the same thing and instead of trying to make people feel guilty, try to understand them because in truth you are no better than the person who hurt you by trying to change my mindset to fit yours. also, If you research something results must come out of it, otherwise that's called being nosy. :Red_fox6:

[SqueezeBabe]

*yawns and stretches* y'know what... you only have a text book view on what happens in a Dom/Sub relationship...

 

"Protesting" is part of the "game" - so when someone like me, reads about the Uke going "no, no, no" when he _really_ means "yes, yes, yes" - well, that get's my motor running, and i'm sure it get's other people's motors running too..

 

You only _think_ it's rape - the ending of the story points out it being something else. Just because you had a bad experience, doesn't mean fictional characters are having a bad experience. Yaoi is full of angst, and emotion, and makes you scream, laugh, cry and get horny. So be it.

 

I'm not you, you're not me. I like watching my Uke's get tied up and taken against their will... *shrugs* it's MY _thing_, not yours.

[jahero]

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Rape is just the word used. The meaning is not. That is like saying queer and you mean gay but in reality queer means strange .

[Musica]

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if i may participate...

umm... yaoi has a lot of sub-genres too... so as you can see,for the manga library, this forum has the

orange sector(softcore) and the red sector(hardcore)...so

yaoi is not always about rape or forcing oneself on another.

 

just like you. I flinch on superhardcore rape scenes,, i tend to read those with,, just light

atmosphere,,,romance, comedy, school life, slice of life...i guess, its just a matter of finding the right

material to fit your taste..(and i'm happy with this forum)

 

for this thread...i guess, it just so happen that the most outspoken people here are our Semes,

with liking to BDSM and rape... lol

 

i love JRR!!..im just gonna say something about..you know...umm rabbit0

yeah..usagi forced misaki several times,but well,misaki realized something too,right?.

he does have a lot of ways to escape usagi-san, but he kept staying for some reason..